s Inquiry into the Promotion of False or Misleading Health-Related Information or Practices | I2P: Information to Pharmacists - Archive
Publication Date 01/11/2013         Volume. 5 No. 10   
Information to Pharmacists


From the desk of the editor

Welcome to the November 1 2013, Homepage Edition of i2P – Information to Pharmacists E-Magazine.
We are approaching the end of a calendar year, a year many of us would like to put behind us.
In this edition we report on the “dark forces” that are beginning to surround us while the profession and industry find themselves in a weakened position – far weaker than they were this time last year.
Quite a few opportunities exist and quite a few opportunities have been squandered by our leadership organisations and their executives.
What pharmacy seems to not have is a group of mentors capable of guiding the introduction of paid clinical services.
Because this activity requires a paradigm shift in attitude and culture, their introduction has to be driven by local leadership.

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Recent Comments

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News Flash

Newsflash Updates November 2013

Newsflash Updates

Regular updates from the global world of pharmacy.
Access and click on the title links that are illustrated.

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Feature Contribution

Is a Community Pharmacy an Incompatible Environment for Clinical Services?

Dr John Dunlop (PGDipPharm, MPharm, DPharm(Auck), FACPP, FNZCP, FPSNZ, MCAPA)

The recent article “observations on implementing a clinical service”,1 stimulated me to share my perceptions of this well meaning approach to providing a clinical service within a community pharmacy.
Firstly let me admit to being much older than the author of this article, and let me establish that I spent over 40 years in community pharmacy before embarking upon a clinical career.
The perception that a viable clinical pharmacy practice can be undertaken in a community pharmacy is contrary to the reality and numerous assessments described in the researched literature.
Having studied this problem for many years, I have come to the conclusion that a community pharmacy environment, which is predominantly a supply and distribution model, is incompatible with the provision of clinical roles.

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Stuff to Think About

Gerald Quigley

Editor's Note: Gerald recently attended a meeting hosted by Medicines Australia.
He picked up on the undercurrent related to the meeting's real agenda.
There are some sinister elements that sense that pharmacy may be in a weakened state with a large number of pharmacists being focused on survival-both employers and employees.
These elements are looking to exploit pharmacy and limit its independence as part of a wide-ranging agenda.
Your help is needed.

The words which literally grabbed me at this meeting included “caught”, “capture” and “tracking”.
No, we weren’t discussing wild animals or escapees from the penal colonies……we were discussing dedicated, hard-working, committed and patient-focused health professionals in Australia.
I attended the Medicines Australia Transparency Working Group meeting in Melbourne last month.
The discussions were centred on the medical profession, more especially on prescribed medicines from my understanding.
References though were continually made about pharmacists.

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Roadblocks in Clinical Services Provision

Neil Johnston

I have been reading with interest, Peter Sayers' journey into paid professional services and his cautious optimism.
Now, as a feature article in this current edition of i2P John Dunlop, a respected New Zealand pharmacist, expresses doubt that clinical pharmacists are going to make it in a community pharmacy setting.
Further, Professor Austin Zubin at a recent PAC2013 conference in Brisbane identified a problem amongst pharmacists he describes as ‘Paralysis in the face of ambiguity’ as he pondered why pharmacists were not taking up opportunities in primary health care.
“Despite abundant opportunity and patient demand, government recognition etc, across the world, a similar picture emerges of a profession that is its own worst enemy,” he said.
 “The standard response to new opportunities is, ‘I don’t have enough time, I’m not trained for this, I’m not getting paid enough, it’s too costly….”

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A Report on HPV Vaccine at the 3rd world congress on Cancer Science and Therapy in San Francisco October 2013

Judy Wilyman

The University of Wollongong recently provided funding for me to present my research on the HPV vaccine at the 3rd world congress on Cancer Science and Therapy in San Francisco.
On the 22nd October I presented my research that demonstrates that HPV vaccination has not been proven to be safe or effective against cervical cancer.
Japan and India have recently stopped recommending this vaccine due to deaths and disability after vaccination.

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Is the CHF (Consumer Health Forum) representative of consumers?

Mark Coleman

i2P has often commented on the orchestration of various lobby groups and their suspect behaviours when orchestrating their seemingly unrelated activities.
They seem to have gotten their chorus to be sung in tune.
Gerald Quigley referred to these "dark forces" in his article in this month's edition.
Their activities are disruptive, damaging and distracting to say the least and some border on the illegal.
They also have a common thread in that members of the Skeptics Society are common within their membership allowing the various groups to work in concert.
i2P readers need to be aware of these activities because they may have to mobilise their resources to counter behaviours that affect pharmacy-directly and indirectly.

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Are On-Line Shoppers Only Concerned With Price?

Chris Foster

It’s easy to assume that the on line shopper is attracted to that medium solely by the cheaper prices that may be available.
And, if price was the only criteria, the majority of bricks and mortar stores (B&M) would well and truly be out of business by now.
Yes, as always, there are a number of consumers where price is the sole determinant in the decision to purchase. Traditionally, this has been around 10% to 15% of consumers.
However, what are the real facts?

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I’ve been texting, I mean thinking about texting, as well as dialing, handwriting, and face-to-face talking in our hurry-up worl

Mark Neuenschwander

These days we call the US Post Service [sic] snail mail. But in 1775, Ben Franklin’s innovation sped up letter travel between Philadelphia and San Francisco from forever to a few months.
In 1844, Samuel Morse accelerated message delivery exponentially. Transmitting words at the speed of light, the inventor’s telegraph made Abraham Lincoln our first online president, enabling the commander in chief to chat instantaneously with his generals on the front lines.
In 1862 the transcontinental railroad relegated the year-old Pony Express to mothballs by whisking letters from coast to coast at 30-some miles per hour in under ten days.

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Caring for you Caring for others – a report on the Health Professionals’ Health Conference 2013 3 October to 5 October 2013

Kay Dunkley - BPharm, Grad Dip Hosp Pharm, Grad Dip Health Admin, MPS, MSHPA

Evolving from the Doctors’ Health Conference the program of the Health Professionals’ Health Conference included much of relevance to all health professionals including pharmacists. Delegates came from all over Australia and New Zealand as well as several travelling from countries further away including England, Ireland, Hong Kong, Singapore, Canada and USA. Delegates included a range of health professionals and medical students. Notably only two pharmacists attended this conference which had approximately 160 delegates.

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Culture Bonds, Right?

Barry Urquhart

PAY ATTENTION: Applying “automatic cruise” is not a viable or appropriate option for management by business leaders today.
The pathway to success and to the future is littered with numerous, often unforeseen barriers, impediments and filters.
There is a clarion-clear message in this for all. It parallels the findings of a recent detailed study among motor vehicle drivers and into the causes of road accidents.
The consistent and most disturbing primary cause of motor vehicle accidents was not speed, alcohol, climatic conditions or unfamiliarity with the local road network (through these were significant, often independent contributors to the accident statistics).
The highest ranking causal factor was INATTENTION.
Being distracted from the primary focus can, and often does have dire consequences.
On the road these can include receiving and sending text messages, mobile telephone calls, loud and aggressive passengers, external eye-catching activities and simple tiredness, boredom and outright inattention.
The consequences can and do impact on many.

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Treating ADHD with Vitamin B-3 (Niacinamide)

Staff Writer

From Orthomolecular Medicine News Service- Editor: Andrew W Saul

ADHD is not caused by a drug deficiency.
But it may indeed be caused by profound nutrient deficiency, more accurately termed nutrient dependency. Although all nutrients are important, the one that an ADHD child is most likely in greatest need of is vitamin B-3, niacinamide.

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Celebrating youth service at We Day

Harvey Mackay

The atmosphere was beyond electric: 18,000 cheering teenagers, and it wasn’t for a rock star, a pro athlete or even canceling school.
This remarkable group of students gathered in St. Paul, Minn., for We Day in early October to be recognized for their stellar record of volunteering.
And this was only one of more than a dozen such gatherings across North America.
We Day is described as a celebration of the power of young Americans to create positive and lasting change, not only in their communities and around the world, but within themselves.

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Pointless and perilous pathologies

Loretta Marron OAM BSc

Off sex, always tired or feeling low? Why not see a natural therapist to find out what's wrong. They offer a variety of tests to nail your problems - but do they work? Hang on, the experts say "No"!
"Commercially driven, unvalidated, pseudo-medical tests are endangering the well-being of Australians by giving wrong diagnoses and incorrect reassurances of their health",
so say the Friends of Science in Medicine (FSM) Pathology Advisory Group. Consisting of distinguished pathologists and allergists from both Australia and New Zealand, their warning comes with the support of The Royal College of Pathologists of Australasia (RCPA).

Comments: 1

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Multi-Professional Prescribing- The AMA Lost Out

Neil Johnston

You have to scratch your head sometimes, particularly when you see news reports quoting Steve Hambledon (AMA President) stating that autonomous prescribing by “non medical health professionals” (which, of course, includes pharmacists), is “dangerous”.
This statement is just about as ridiculous as an earlier statement indicating vaccines provided through pharmacy were dangerous because pharmacy lacks suitable refrigerators.
This followed the decision by COAG to approve the draft Health Professionals Prescribing Pathway, now only requiring legislative approval and Board Guidelines to become a significant factor in the pharmacy profession moving forward.

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Niacin Beats Statins Supplements and Diet are Safer, More Effective

Staff Writer

OHMS Newsletter
by Andrew W. Saul, Editor

 Statins for everyone?
If media are to be believed, and if the drug industry has its way, the answer is "you bet."
The American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that kids as young as eight years of age might take statin drugs.
Specifically: "As a group, statins have been shown to reduce LDL cholesterol in children and adolescents with marked LDL cholesterol elevation . . . when used from 8 weeks to 2 years for children aged 8 to 18 years." http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/128/Supplement_5/S213.full
Strangely enough, American Academy of Pediatrics projects receive cash from Merck & Co., Pfizer and Sanofi-Aventis, as well as from Procter and Gamble, Nestlé and other large corporations. http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/corporate-relationships/Pages/Friends-of-Children-Fund-President%27s-Circle.aspx

Comments: 1

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Chiropractors and GP’s told to team up after published research

Mark Coleman

Recently, the Chiropractors Association of Australia partially funded a study undertaken by researchers at the University of Melbourne, which has provided the best picture yet of the most common conditions treated by chiropractors.
It suggests most chiropractic treatments and consultations undertaken in Australia are evidence based.

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Fart With Confidence

Peter Jackson

Technology derived during the development of protective clothing for use in chemical warfare has now been adapted for everyday consumers to assist them in daily living. The discovery that carbon fibre can absorb and filter flatulence odours and incontinence odours has now been put to practical use in a commercial product called "Shreddies".

Comments: 1

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What Replaced Kodak?

Neil Johnston

At the turn of the 20th Century Kodak  reigned supreme.
Box Brownies were the camera for every occasion and the developing and printing of film was big business for pharmacy.
Kodak liked the alliance with pharmacy because pharmacists understood the science behind the various types of film, the processing chemicals and the nuances of the various printing papers.
Yes, Kodak liked the pharmacy retail environment so much that any pharmacists could order a repaint of their front of shop awning at any time – free of charge, provided the name Kodak dominated in the Kodak colours of red, yellow and black.

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A Catalyst for Change

Gerald Quigley

Editor's Note: Australia, it seems, has had the highest global rate of prescribing for statins.
That seems to suggest that Australian doctors may have been prescribing unnecessarily, and behind that fact, allowing drug companies to influence them to a greater extent than necessary.
Those $10 meals certainly provided a return on investment for drug companies to the extent that the party may now be over as approximately 40 percent of doctors are reviewing their prescribing practices surrounding statin usage in their patients. Gerald Quigley relates one patient experience.

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Pushing the envelope

Harvey Mackay

“Pushing the envelope” is a phrase that originated with American test pilots like Chuck Yaeger and John Glenn in the 1940s.
It described max stress situations for the metal skin (“envelope”) of a jet aircraft.  In other words, the plane was designed to fly safely up to a certain speed for a certain distance at a certain altitude. 
The job of test pilots was to “push the envelope” by making the plane go faster, farther and higher.  The term “pushing the envelope” came into popular parlance in the blockbuster book and movie (1983) “The Right Stuff.”
Naturally, this phrase is near and dear to me.  On my business card, my title is “Envelope Salesman.”  So literally, I am pushing the envelope every day! 

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Medical Debate Censorship Attempt by NSW Government

Staff Writer

Editor's Note: Until today, I had never heard of the organisation Avaaz.
Avaaz—meaning "voice" in several European, Middle Eastern and Asian languages—launched in 2007 with a simple democratic mission: organize citizens of all nations to close the gap between the world we have and the world most people everywhere want.
Avaaz empowers millions of people from all walks of life to take action on pressing global, regional and national issues, from corruption and poverty to conflict and climate change.
The Avaaz model of internet organising allows thousands of individual efforts, however small, to be rapidly combined into a powerful collective force. (Read about results on the Highlights page.)
The Avaaz community campaigns in 15 languages, served by a core team on 6 continents and thousands of volunteers.
Avaaz takes action -- signing petitions, funding media campaigns and direct actions, emailing, calling and lobbying governments, and organizing "offline" protests and events -- to ensure that the views and values of the world's people inform the decisions that affect us all.

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Inquiry into the Promotion of False or Misleading Health-Related Information or Practices

Judy Wilyman

I'd like to draw your attention to an inquiry that is taking place in the NSW parliament. It is titled ˜Inquiry into the Promotion of False or Misleading Health-Related Information or Practices".
This inquiry is being held by the Committee on the Health Care Complaints Commission (HCCC).
This is the consumer watchdog that investigates consumer complaints or concerns.
The aim of the inquiry is to report on possible measures to address the promotion of unscientific health-related information or practices that may be detrimental to individual or public health.

Comments: 8

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New sensor passes litmus test

Staff Researcher

Edith Cowan University researchers have drawn on their expertise in nanotechnology to update the humble pH sensor, replacing traditional glass electrode devices that have been in use since the 1930s with a new sensor thinner than a human hair.
Electron Science Research Institute Director Professor Kamal Alameh said the sensor could have exciting new applications in the oil and gas and medical industries.

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Structure Sensor 3D Scanner Works with New iPad Air and iPad Mini

Staff Writer

Editor's Note: At i2P we're convinced that 3D printing is going to invade just about every aspect of pharmacy - from tablet and vaccine manufacture, drug testing on a patient's own tissue outside of the body. to design detail for any item of pharmacy furniture.
We are therefore stepping up reportage for this exciting and disruptive technology.

if you were one of the almost 3,000 backers of the Structure Sensor on Kickstarter and were hoping to attach the 3D scanning device to your new iPad Air and iPad Mini with Retina Display, you might be a little worried about compatibility. 
Well, fret not. Occipital, the startup behind the Structure Sensor, has adapted its product to Apple’s latest release.

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New nanoparticle delivers, tracks cancer drugs

Staff Researcher

Chemical engineers and clinicians from UNSW and Monash University have synthesised a new iron oxide nanoparticle that delivers cancer drugs to cells while simultaneously monitoring the drug release in real time.
The result, published online in the journal ACS Nano, represents an important development for the emerging field of theranostics – a term that refers to nanoparticles that can treat and diagnose disease.

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How fat could help solve part of the diabetes problem

Staff Researcher

The pancreas is a large organ that wraps around our gut, and produces the exact amount of insulin our bodies need when we eat – except when we start to develop diabetes, and insulin production slows down. Sydney scientists describe how a fat recycling system within pancreatic ‘beta cells’ determines the amount of insulin they secrete, and so may provide a target for future diabetes therapies.

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Receipt of licence application (DIR 126) from PaxVax Australia Pty Ltd for a clinical trial of a GM cholera vaccine

Judy Wilyman

I'd just like to make you aware of this government action to release a genetically modified live bacterial cholera vaccine into the population. Here is the link to this experiment on the government website http://www.ogtr.gov.au/internet/ogtr/publishing.nsf/Content/dir126
Cholera has not been a problem in Australia for many decades.
I have not seen this mentioned in the media so I hope people will take an interest to find out why this experiment is necessary in the Australian population.

Comments: 2

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Australia’s future healthcare system must be consumer-centric (ASMI 2013 Conference)

Marie Kelly-Davies

The importance of industry, policymakers and regulators putting the consumer front and centre of discussions on Australia’s future health system was a key theme of the 2013 Australian Self Medication Industry (ASMI) Conference in Sydney recently.

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ASMI welcomes community pharmacy support for S3 information-based advertising

Marie Kelly-Davies

The Australian Self Medication Industry (ASMI) is encouraged by strong signals of support from community pharmacy to expand the range of Pharmacist Only (S3) medicines as well as its widespread support of an information-based communications approach to consumers for S3 medicines, as demonstrated by the UTS Pharmacy Barometer released this week.1
Prescription to non-prescription reclassification (‘Rx to OTC switch’) and lifting the current advertising restrictions on S3 communication are key issues that remain high on ASMI’s agenda.

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Dark Forces Emerging - Including Colesworth

Neil Johnston

Editor’s Comment:
The media extract this month comes from a Pharmacy News report that Woolworths is on the move once more with pharmacy in its sights.
We would assume that Coles is also in the mix.
There are many “dark forces” aligned against pharmacy interests. In all my years as a member of the pharmacy profession I don’t think I have seen so many diverse groups waiting in line to “knee-cap” pharmacy activity.
Because many of these “dark forces” overlap and help each other along, I have asked Mark Coleman to clarify these “dark forces” from his perspective, because he has been researching some of these organisations and has written an article about some of them in this edition.
In no way can I see a Liberal Government, the representatives of big business, move to restrain Colesworth, except for minor marginal activities.

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Inquiry into the Promotion of False or Misleading Health-Related Information or Practices

Judy Wilyman

articles by this author...

I have many years of experience as a science teacher and I have lectured in environmental health issues. I began a PhD in environmental health policy at Wollongong University in 2007 and lectured and researched in Environmental Health at Murdoch University from 2008 – 2010. I am currently completing my PhD at Wollongong University.

I'd like to draw your attention to an inquiry that is taking place in the NSW parliament. It is titled ˜Inquiry into the Promotion of False or Misleading Health-Related Information or Practices".
This inquiry is being held by the Committee on the Health Care Complaints Commission (HCCC).
This is the consumer watchdog that investigates consumer complaints or concerns.
The aim of the inquiry is to report on possible measures to address the promotion of unscientific health-related information or practices that may be detrimental to individual or public health.

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Here is a link to the inquiry and the terms of reference.


This is a worthy inquiry but the terms of reference state that they would like to target:

˜The publication and/or the dissemination of false or misleading information that may cause the community to mistrust an accepted medical practice."

This aim needs to be examined.

Preventing the dissemination of false and misleading information is a worthy aim.
However preventing any information that leads the public to ˜mistrust an accepted medical practice" that results in the suppression of proper scientific debate on health issues, then this is dangerous to public health.

In 2013 it is known that industry sponsored research in medicine has resulted in a peer-reviewed system of knowledge that is flawed.
This system is now providing false and misleading health information that doctors and governments are using to make important decisions on public health.
Here is a quote that sums up the flawed peer-reviewed system:

˜Members of corporate driven special interest groups, in virtue of their financial power and close ties with other members of the group often get leading roles in editing medical journals and in advising non-profit research organizations’ (Krimsky 2003 p.10).

Many prominent scientists and journal editors have now exposed this flawed system including Marcia Angell MD, former Chief Editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, for 20 years.
In addition, it is known that the following practices are rife in the current model of medicine in Australia:

* Doctors being paid to give presentations using pharmaceutical company slides with pharmaceutically funded research and statistics
* Doctors given free international trips and paid to give presentations to promote drugs
* Pharmaceutical sales representatives given large bonuses to sell a drug even after concerns were raised about the side-effects of the drugs
* The hidden industry ties of academics in universities and similarly in government advisory boards.
* The conflicts of interest in the media presentation of drugs and their side-effects
The conflicts of interest in Australia's National Immunisation Conference presented by the Public Health Association of Australia (PHAA).
This conference is funded by the pharmaceutical companies
The hidden ties between industry and the chief-editors on peer-reviewed journals, who are selecting against articles with negative findings on drugs/vaccines.
Little research funding being provided for research in the public interest. In particular, the possibility that the chemicals in the 11 vaccines now recommended to infants under 12 months of age, are causing the steep increase in chronic illness in our children.
If these practices are known to exist in the practice of medicine and they are not made transparent to the public, then it is important that everyone is allowed to present scientific information for debate.

It is also important that the public is included in decisions made on public health policy so they can present the science that is in the public interest. Industry representatives are not going to present this science for inclusion in health policies.
The suggestion that only ˜medical doctors can provide the science on health issues is a fallacy and it places the emphasis of the debate on the ˜qualifications" and not the ˜science".

The fact that it is possible for doctors to be educated with biased information due to industry sponsorship of their education means that they can provide  misleading information. Industry sponsored medical education and research puts public health at risk. Doctors are no longer being educated with disinterested science and therefore they should not be the only members of society presenting science for public debate.
Please take an interest in public health and write a submission to this inquiry.
Submissions close 13th December 2013.

Return to home

Submitted by Judy Wilyman on Mon, 27/01/2014 - 13:56.

Mr. McMaugh is again missing the point of our discussion (23.01.2014). I have clearly stated on my website that the information I am providing is to 'complement' the information provided by the government. This is because the government is not providing all the science that is available in the medical journals and in government documents. I would not be providing this to you from the university if this was not the case.
Providing links to further pro-vaccine articles is not participating in the debate.
The question Mr. McMaugh should be asking is:

Why is the government using selective evidence to promote a public health policy?

This is evident from the many websites (like my own) that are now presenting the science demonstrating the risks involved with using multiple vaccines in developing infants ie. the other side of the vaccination debate that is not being provided in the media.
We are waiting for Mr. McMaugh to refute our arguments with evidence instead of hiding behind pro-vaccination links that minimise the risks without adequate science.
Ignoring some of the science, as Mr. McMaugh is doing, does not prove that 'vaccines are safe and effective' and it does not demonstrate that his interest in this issue is health.
Mr. McMaugh should be asking the government why parents are now having to research the medical journals for themselves to find all the science on the risks and benefits of vaccines. He needs to start debating the science related to our health and stop discussing the issue as if it is about 'pro- and anti- vaccination'. The debate is about the health of the community and parents are entitled to be provided with all the available scientific evidence.

Submitted by Judy Wilyman on Tue, 14/01/2014 - 09:48.

Mr.McMaugh - My position and arguments on vaccination are clearly described on my website www.vaccinationdecisions.net
along with my academic publications that have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
I will be quite clear - my position is not about anti-vaccination - it is about ensuring that all vaccines are supported by rigorous safety and efficacy trials.
Your desire to describe me as 'emotional,
unscientific and biased' is clear because you are ignoring the evidence of my scientific publications and comments presented for debate on my website. And, in addition, you have not provided a single scientific argument or reference to support your opinions.
Whilst the government does not provide funding for many of the scientific studies they do control the direction of research funding.
You have suggested that there are 'independent' studies that provide definitive evidence of the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Please could you provide me with these studies.
To date I have only seen studies that have been funded by vaccine manufacturers that claim vaccines are safe and effective. The references for my comments can be found on the publications page of my website. I look forward to you providing some independent science to support the opinions you have provided so far.

Submitted by Judy Wilyman on Mon, 06/01/2014 - 15:34.

Reply to Jarrad McMaugh (3.1.14)

Can I remind Mr.McMaugh that his original comment stated "who cares" if funding is not being provided to determine the safety and efficacy of vaccines? This is an emotional and insensitive remark to the many parents who put their faith in the science that is being used by doctors and governments in vaccination policies.
If the science was available Mr. McMaugh would not have to rely on the word "if" to present his argument. He states "if the balance is in favour of less death and morbidity then the outcome is still a positive one".
"If" Mr. McMaugh could demonstrate with evidence that this is the case then there would be no need for this discussion but as I pointed out in my original comment the government is not funding the studies that would provide definitive evidence for this conclusion. I welcome your participation in this discussion Mr. McMaugh but it is important to debate the issues and to support the arguments with evidence.

Submitted by Jarrod McMaugh on Sat, 11/01/2014 - 22:23.

Ms Wilyman

Firstly, I'm not presenting any facts or arguments, I am asking a question. It is not incumbent on me to provide evidence for a question (if such a thing were even possible).

Secondly, lets look further at your statement - "the government is not funding the studies that would provide definitive evidence for this conclusion".
The government does not fund many studies into the effectiveness of medical interventions at all. Why would they be required to provide funding in this area? Is it not better for them to provide funding for independent bodies to assess research (as they do in the form of PBAC etc)?

What I would really like to see from yourself is an article on this site stating your position on vaccines - what specifically about them do you oppose? Is it the idea of vaccines in general? Is it industrialization of the vaccination market?

Are you against the eradication of small pox and massively reduced incidence of polio? Are you against the reduction in death rates from measles and whooping cough?

Are you against the association of vaccines with autism - a link which has been proven to be a fabrication by Andrew Wakefield?

You asked this question of me earlier:
"what interests you are protecting in this policy because you are clearly not using scientific evidence to protect the health of the community"

I have no interests to protect. I am a pharmacist that dispenses no vaccines - all of the doctors in my local area provide vaccines direct to patients, so I derive no income from them at all.

I am also not making any scientific statements or claims at all - I am trying to elicit a response from yourself on this matter.

The reverse is not true however - you ARE making statements of a scientific manner, yet you phrase them in a manner that is unscientific, emotive, and biased at best. This reduces your credibility, which may well be a shame if you actually have a point to make that is worth making.

Therefore I ask again, could you provide the readers of this site with an article stating your position on vaccines, backed up with references that back up your position on the matter - I am not asking you to prove anything, but please; make an argument that is compelling, or if not compelling, at least make one that is consistent and logical.

Submitted by Judy Wilyman on Sun, 01/12/2013 - 14:53.

Jarrod - public health is about reducing the deaths and illness from all possible causes of disease. Your statement that 'vaccines reduce acute illness that cause death and chronic morbidity' is untruthful because it is not complete.

Some scientists are claiming that 'vaccines reduce acute illness that cause death and chronic morbidity' and even if this is the case (and there is a lot of evidence that many vaccines have not been proven safe and effective against the diseases they are stated to prevent) the fact remains that vaccines also cause 'death and chronic illness' and it is not acceptable to introduce vaccines without informing the public: 1) What percentage of the population is at risk from the infectious disease and 2) What percentage of the population is at risk from death and illness from the vaccine?

Your statements are simplistic and they do not represent a responsible attitude to public health. Your suggestion that your attitude is 'too blase' is an understatement and it puts public health at risk.

In the US which has set up a compensation scheme for the victims of vaccines they have paid out over US$2 billion in compensation - and these are only to the victims whose reactions occurred within 4 weeks of the vaccine. It is well known that the reactions can be delayed - months or years - so the real estimate of harm is unknown.

The only way you can make the simplistic statements above is by not acknowledging the harm that vaccines are known to cause in the population. In this case I would have to ask what interests you are protecting in this policy because you are clearly not using scientific evidence to protect the health of the community.

Submitted by Jarrod McMaugh on Fri, 03/01/2014 - 16:39.

I wish I had paid attention to this reply earlier so I could have responded.

Just I'd just like to make a few points:

1) You aren't very good at taking criticism, hence your use of inflammatory language such as "untruthful", and implying that I'm irresponsible.

I think you would agree that if someone makes a statement that is factual, but is not broad enough to cover the entire issue, then this would be considered "incomplete" rather than untruthful.

With regards to the simplicity of my statements - this was the entire point of my response. I was commenting on the total picture, not on specifics. This, by necessity, creates a simplistic view of things.

2) The fact that there is a compensation scheme for "victims" of vaccines does not, by virtue of its existence, prove that there is in fact more harm than good caused by vaccines.

3) you continually use the term "well known" - unless you'd like to reference your sources, then every time you say this, what you are saying is "in my opinion" or worse "I can't prove this but I know I'm right"

Anyway, I believe the point of you being given a forum on this website to discuss these matters is so that the discussions actually happen. I'm more than happy to participate in these discussions, but if you can't control your responses and compose them in a manner that isn't intended to inflame the responder, then I won't bother

Submitted by Jarrod McMaugh on Sat, 23/11/2013 - 14:33.

Regarding this point:

"Little research funding being provided for research in the public interest. In particular, the possibility that the chemicals in the 11 vaccines now recommended to infants under 12 months of age, are causing the steep increase in chronic illness in our children."

If this is the case (which I am not agreeing to - chronic disease may be increasing due to lifestyle and increased life expectancy). . . .

Anyway, if this is the case - who cares?

perhaps that attitude is too blase but the fact is that vaccines reduce acute illness that cause death and chronic morbidity.

If the balance is in the favour of less death, and reduce morbidity (even if this morbidity is shifted from one condition to another), the outcome is still a positive one.

I understand that you are passionate about what you believe, but it's not science if you approach things with an outcome in mind before you start your argument.

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